Curse

romeus petrus · Feb 14, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Skilled player =/= UB dude.

I don't recall suggesting the opposite.

Fried Tech · Feb 14, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Because it's already been answered but you and the other pro Ursan fanatics just keep repeating the darn question along with all the other pointless comments. If you don't bother to read the other posts, we should we bother answering something that's been answered over and over?

the same can be said to the kill ursan fanatics. again. and again. and again.
so lets just keep running in circles until you realize that nothing will happen to ursan.

romeus petrus · Feb 14, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

You have any idea about titles? And that we are talking about PvE? Rank discrimination there was since DoA appeared. Besides, titles in pve appeared in beta's of Nightfall, so there MAYBE was a discrimination in PvP. I don't know, frankly, I don't care. I know that there is one in PvE and it's a bad, bad thing.

Yes I have a very good idea about titles. And if you are going to be PvE specific you are correct; Norn and LB Titles are the most obvious Rank "reqs" in PvE.

I couldn't agree more that most (if not all) PvE titles are a result of a lot of grinding. Most of my guild and ingame friends know my position on (?most) titles and how they turned the game into a grind fest. From an Anet stand point though, it's a very cheap way of keeping ppl busy for a long time to come..

lyra_song · Feb 14, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Maybe in an ideal world PUGs would strive to be more understanding and appreciative of other professions. In reality,though; most PUGs are not. So, realistically speaking, a lot of professions and skilled players would not have a good chance getting into most pugs for high end PvE/Elite areas if it weren't for UB. Just a simple reality, not an opinion.

PUGS in general are stupid. Thats why any resurgence of PUGS created by Ursan shouldn't be considered a positive.

But why are PUGS so dumb? Simple.

Because bad players slip through. They make it to high end areas. They don't learn from mistakes.

Give bad players tools to overcome how bad they are and just bulldoze through, and the PUG quality continues to drop.

I've found that GOOD players do not PUG. Good players have good player friends, and guilds and alliances. Because they don't wanna deal with PUG scrubs.

You're right, a lot of classes and players (good and bad) wouldn't be in Elite areas in groups without Ursan.

But do they belong there?

Not all content in the game is designed for EVERYONE. Some content is for PvPers, Some is for farmers, some is for casual players, some is for good players, some is for bad players. Not all elite content is designed for all professions. This is the major design flaw in the game.

And instead of fixing that flaw, we get a generic build that anyone can use that strips their class identity and degenerates the game into C+space 1,2,3 regardless of how youve been playing for the past 3 chapters.

KennyC · Feb 14, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

For many of the people who have played this game a long time (pve) the acquisition of titles has become their primary aim and a source of great pride. These people have worked hard to acquire these titles, it has taken time and effort to achieve these goals and they feel justifiably proud.

However, with the introduction of UB less skilled people have the fast track to those titles that they would otherwise be unable to get without learning how to play properly. (skill over time) That less skilled comment is obviously not aimed at everyone, but all of you without exception know what I'm talking about.

The whole argument can be distilled into 2 comments.

1. Against Ursan.
So you get noobs/lazy people racing up the KOABD track with titles that in all honesty they have not earned at all, now all people think I did the same and its made all my hard work feel like a waste of time because noobs can achieve the same as me by pressing c,1234,space as fast as they can, it's wrong, it needs a nerf and it needs a nerf now dammit!

2. For Ursan.
I ain't got time to learn all the skills and builds, I want the rewards and titles now - UB gives me that and it's fun to ALWAYS WIN so I use it and all you elitist fools that worked hard for your titles can shove your attitude where the sun don't shine! Hahaha11!

Summary - The idea of learning how to play at a progressive difficulty level was a constant throughout all 3 chapters, starting at pre searing, and either noob island on the 2 other chapters you learn skills and the game starts to up the ante at every new area and enemy. You start to get better and better as you "Learn" the game.

UB has removed this learning curve completely and introduced a wealth of bad players.
Its totally screwed the pve hierarchal title system.

Nerf it, Delete it, ffs do something and do it soon!

Racthoh · Feb 14, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Not all elite content is designed for all professions.

HM DoA, specifically Ravenheart Gloom, is the only area in the game where I would agree with this. Which is funny since Ursan is the best strategy for HM Gloom. Environmental effects are the only thing that will make one profession significantly better than another in any given area.

Randvek · Feb 14, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by KennyC

2. For Ursan.
I ain't got time to learn all the skills and builds, I want the rewards and titles now - UB gives me that and it's fun to ALWAYS WIN so I use it and all you elitist fools that worked hard for your titles can shove your attitude where the sun don't shine! Hahaha11!

Troll moar pl0x.

Familiar with a straw man? Logical fallacy ftw!

Crom The Pale · Feb 14, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

I have been in a few PuG's of late and was happily surprised to find only 1 player using UB, and that was for the mission Blood washes Blood

People appear very willing to adjust builds and take advice, as long as its delivered with a bit of tact.

Creeping Carl · Feb 15, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by KennyC

The whole argument can be distilled into 2 comments.

1. Against Ursan.
So you get noobs/lazy people racing up the KOABD track with titles that in all honesty they have not earned at all, now all people think I did the same and its made all my hard work feel like a waste of time because noobs can achieve the same as me by pressing c,1234,space as fast as they can, it's wrong, it needs a nerf and it needs a nerf now dammit!

No. That's not all it's about. That's the least of our concerns. I won't bother listing the points again.... Just read a few pages of the thread.

cellardweller · Feb 15, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

I don't have much to add that hasn't been said other than Norgu was on my 6 Hero team in 3 of the 4 areas when I took 6 heroes through DoA - he wasn't only viable to run, he was the best choice for the slot. Mesmer's not being able to complete DoA is not an excuse for letting Ursan ruin the game.

GrimEye · Feb 15, 2008, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Ok, so we have all the arguments what's "wrong" with Ursan. So what do we do about it to make things "right"?

Guys, ladies, offer some solutions and not more arguments, for the arguments are just going in circles. I counter you, you counter me, I counter back, and we are back in square one. The argument whats "wrong" had been said, now lets see how we can make it "right".

For all those arguments, very few really offered a concrete, workable solution.

If your solution is completely taking ursan out of the game, then the vaunted claim of "intelligence and creative" would not aptly describe you. That is like swatting a mosquito with a hydrgen bomb, an easy solution but not exactly intelligent and creative.

If your solution is making Ursan "unusable", not exactly creative but a lazy man's way of solving things.

What Im really interested, is the middle ground, where "Ursan" be relegated to an "alternative" skill or meta-build and not die the slow death of nerfing.

Of course, that is, if ANET is still open and considering changing Ursan in any way. If not, all suggestion of solution is meaningless, and we would be dancing in circles all through the months until GW2 comes out. And its a long and tiring dance, and we can just continue arguing ourselves to exhaustion.

My take.

cebalrai · Feb 15, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

What does Anet have to say for the ongoing, consistent dissatisfaction with Ursan?

cellardweller · Feb 15, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

For all those arguments, very few really offered a concrete, workable solution.

These were my suggestions from another thread, in all cases the degenerate "replaces your skillbar" mechanic has been removed. These are different skills to the ones used in the missions which remain unchanged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ursan Blessing

For 60-80 seconds you assume the avatar of the bear. While in this form, you gain 100hp, and your attacks do an additional 10-15 damage and have a 5-10% chance of knocking down your target. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

Reason: The +10-15 damage always is somewhat in line with avatar of lyssa's +45 while activating. The +100hp is equivilent to Lyssa's +20e (survivor vs radiant insigs). The knockdown is gravy on the top because people will compliain if their pve skills aren't overpowered.

Avatar Model: Norns bear form

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Blessing

For 60-80 seconds you assume the avatar of the raven. While in this form, you are immune to knockdown have a 10-30% block chance, your attacks cause bleeding for 3-5 seconds and have a 10-15% chance of blinding your opponent for 3-5 second and your skills recharge 33% faster.

This is a Mantra of recovery with slightly lower coverage, but available without any attribute investments. The anti-knockdown and condition causesing are flavour based bonuses that won't cause major imbalances.

Avatar Model: Tengu with black feathers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volfen Blessing

For 60-80 seconds you assume the avatar of the wolf. While in this form, you gain +4-6 health regeneration, and you move and attack 33% faster. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

This is the AoB that everyone has been asking for but would break PvP. In PvE having long lasting, unremovable speed and ias buffs is useful without being gamebreaking.

Avatar Model: Wendigo .

dunky_g · Feb 15, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

just did a pug ursan for norn points clearing, first time i have ever done a ursan pug ...

.. i wont do it again.. home of the most immature people i have ever met.

not fun.

Kusandaa · Feb 15, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I still don't get why people are STILL QQing about UB...

TBH, I don't care if people do whatever faster than I do. Why? Because I do the stuff I want, and not to compete. I play Ursan in DoA because that's a fast way to make cash and ATM, that's what I need. I don't use it much elsewhere, because alone it gets really boring for me and I want to play as my profession.

There's always been discrimination about builds, ranks, professions, name it, there is. I've dealt with it. How? I play with my friends. If I want to PUG and succeed, I'll use Ursan because it doesn't take a masters degree to do it (and some still suck at it... yes, you can suck at Ursan, it's pretty ****ing hard to but I've seen it). So what if I play mesmer in PvE or don't feel like running a warrior for such mission? So what if I want to HA but I don't have a high rank (44 fame in nearly 3 years)? So what if I have a friend who wants to play Ursan and I don't feel like it? Fine, everything goes.

About UB itself, let's face it, it's not gonna get nerfed. It's made to be broken. I think it's GW in easy mode... but if it ends up being nerfed, TBH I wouldn't mind. Why? I've always moved on... why not this.

Aera Lure · Feb 15, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

What does Anet have to say for the ongoing, consistent dissatisfaction with Ursan?

They say to post about it on forums. For all the good that does. It can hardly be discussed.

trobinson97 · Feb 15, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

What does Anet have to say for the ongoing, consistent dissatisfaction with Ursan?

Probably the same for the ongoing, consistent, satisfaction with Ursan.

"Good, good."

Bryant Again · Feb 15, 2008, 05:03 AM // 05:03

I really do like Cellardweller's ideas for UB. It could turn the skills more into "fun alternatives" rather than "most preferable" alternatives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

I'm glad we finally agree. Just to stress the point, try and get into a PUG in DoA as an SF nuker or an OF tank.

So wait. Ursan Blessing doesn't really help anything? Unless you're saying we agree on one certain, particular aspect?

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Probably the same for the ongoing, consistent, satisfaction with Ursan.

"Good, good."

How is Ursan Blessing "good," unless ANet wants to damage their game?

romeus petrus · Feb 15, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So wait. Ursan Blessing doesn't really help anything? Unless you're saying we agree on one certain, particular aspect?

Im saying Ursan helped the less appraciated professions get into pugs in places like DoA, but at the same time made it harder for the once highly desireable prefessions to get into teams unless they are running UB.

trobinson97 · Feb 15, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

How is Ursan Blessing "good," unless ANet wants to damage their game?

How is it good? Here was thinking I'd get a hard question. You guys claim that there are nothing but Ursan groups pugging so obviously it's good for those people who choose to play it. A vocal minority does not represent the views of the whole, nor does it imply in any way that the game is damaged. You'd need harder evidence than your opinions to convince me. Believe me, I welcome the hard evidence.

How is it good for me? It's neither good nor bad, since I don't use it and don't care what's going on in someone else's instance. I am completely indifferent about Ursan or whatever skill Anet has put into the game for use, unless it comes down to what I and my team are doing in my(our) instance. Well that and I don't even play the game anymore.

How is it good for you? Well only you can answer that question which you have. You say it's boring (solution: don't use it), then you say it's unbalanced (yeah, so are a lot of things), then you say it hurts the economy (lower prices for items only hurt the greedy minority who like to hoard gold, the majority of buyers are happy with lowered prices). The funniest one by far though is the one where you say it doesn't make players better (well guess what, not everyone has to live up your expectations!!). I'll tell you one thing though, you folks should really stop fronting on this whole crusade tip about making other players better. Your argument ultimately comes down to "bad" players seeming to be as "good" as you. Whether that is by the titles they sport, the armor they wear, or the weapons they use. You can go in that newly made Armbraces thread and see that.

If you can list one solid fact on why Ursan should be done away with I might be inclined to take the whining seriously. Hell, if you could give me one reason that does not ultimately lead to your own selfish motivations on how you think the game should be played I'll give you a cookie.

I'd type more but that should have answered your question. I digressed into a rant there at the end. Apologies.